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HONOR & RESPECT

 

Private Citizens
Questions & Answers, Frequently Asked Questions, and Blog


Site updated by Robert Hickey on September 1, 2010

Is Anyone a Miss Anymore?       
How To Address a Widow?       

How Should Jr., II, III, IV, and V Be Used After After A Man's Name?      

Whose Name if First? His or Hers?      

How To Write Place Cards for a Formal Dinner       

Whose Name is First? His or Hers?
    In an informal salutation for a married couple whose name is first?  His or hers?

 
         -- Anne

Dear Anne:
    There are rules of protocol when one person in a couple holds a high office, but when the formality drops to a first-name basis ... then etiquette takes over.  On this point there are conflicting opinions on name order in such a social salutation.
 
        Should you write it ladies first?
      
         Dear Anne and Tom,
   
     Should you write it to preserve the Mr. & Mrs. order?
           
    Dear Tom and Ann,
   When there is no surname used ... more etiquette books (if that is any measure) show ladies first:
 
          Dear Anne and Tom,
      -- Robert Hickey

    Hi Robert,
    Thanks!  I wasn’t expecting a response so quickly.  You confirm what I’ve found by searching all over – that there really isn’t a hard and fast rule, so I think we’ll have to define it here so as not to offend the donor’s we address. I’ve found your site to be most helpful as I work on writing a procedure for our Development Office.

 
         -- Anne

Gentlemen or Ladies First in Joint Address?
    When listing a couple using first names and last name whose name comes first?  Is it Tom and Anne Smyth or Anne and Tom Smyth?

         -- Liz

Dear Liz:
    Conflicting opinions on name order in the books I have seen.
  
          Ladies first?
      
              Anne and Tom Smyth
 
          Preserve the "Mr. & Mrs." order?
     
              Tom and Ann Smyth
   More etiquette books (if that is any measure) show ladies first:
        Anne and Tom Smyth
   I've most often seen this defended as keeping the man's name together as unit
.
                   -- Robert Hickey

How Should Jr., II, III, IV, and V Be Used After A Man's Name?
Dear Mr. Hickey:
I am not sure of the name sequence in the following situation. My son is Walter C. Wentz IV.  His father and grandfathers are deceased.  What is the proper designation for him now?  What is the proper designation for the son he is expecting next month? I would very much appreciate your guidance and expert advice.

         --- Audrey Parker

Dear Ms. Parker:
    The name one uses is up to the person: So Mom, you won't be deciding anything here, you can only advise!
    Continued use is often a matter of clarity for those one encounters.
    1) Some men drop the sequence post-nominals ... Jr., II, or III ... when their father dies and they think it unlikely there will be social or professional confusion.
    2) Some men keep the sequence post-nominals if their father was well-known ... or if they work in the same law firm ... or same company ... and they think the friends/clients/customers will find the designation useful and interesting.
    3) One might keep
the sequence post-nominals because his mother is Mrs. Walter C. Wentz III and his wife is Mrs. Walter C. Wentz IV and socially that differentiation matters to the family. However since you are using "Audrey Parker" (rather than Mrs. (name)) it won't be confusing.
    One situation is seen with Microsoft's Bill Gates, who is really William H. Gates, Jr., but never used the "Jr."  Now his father, born William H. Gates uses William H. Gates, Sr.  He added the Sr. to clarify that he is not his much more famous son.  He probably did not officially change is name in court ... it's just a informal and unofficial change.
    So, if your son names his son Walter C. Wentz V, he's probably going to keep using Walter C. Wentz IV. If he names his son Zachery ... his IV
becomes less necessary.
 
          -- Robert Hickey

Is Anyone a "Miss" Anymore?
     When should I use "Ms." and "Mrs." today? Is anyone a "Miss" anymore?
                     - AKWP, Storm Lake, Iowa

Dear AKWP:
    "Ms." is an honorific for a woman that does not specify marital status. It is now almost always used in the United States the business arena regardless of what the woman chooses to call herself in her private life.  "Mrs." is sometimes used in business environments, but only when it is known to be the preference of the bearer.
    "Miss" in the United States is rarely used in address except for young girls, perhaps under 12 years of age. Once girls reach, say 13, most people today are addressing envelope to young women as Ms. (full name).
    In professional environments outside the United States
Ms. is not so ubiquitous: Mrs. (woman’s name) and Miss (name) are common. In many countries Mrs. (woman’s name) is used by working women without any implication of their marital status.
                     -- Robert Hickey

How Do I Address A Widow?
How do you address an envelope to a widow? My mother says to put Mrs. John Doe. I think that it should be Mrs. Jane Doe, since her husband is no longer alive, why use his name? Is either way correct?
       - Blanche Clark

Dear Ms. Clark:
    Mrs. John Doe is the traditional form for a widow.
    Mrs. Jane Doe is the traditional form for a divorced woman.
    Ms. Jane Doe is the contemporary form which does not suggest a marital status.
 
   However, the real answer is you need to find the preference of the person to whom you are addressing the letter. You don't state the nature of the correspondence. She may prefer different forms of her name in different situations. For a wedding invitation from a bride who knew her husband she might prefer Mrs. John Doe but from someone she knows professionally she might prefer Ms. Jane Doe.
    My mother was most formally Mrs. Thomas Hickey after my father died. And she would use Margaret Hickey on her checks. But she was never Mrs. Margaret Hickey -- except on those free return-address labels you get in the mail. She didn't like
Ms. but I think (in her case) it was a generational thing.
    Younger women will be very comfortable
being Ms. (given name + surname) in situations where marital status is not an issue. They never used Miss in the same way they did in the early 20th century.
      -- Robert Hickey

How Do I Write Place Cards for a Formal Event?
Dear Robert:
    I'm putting together place cards for a memorial dinner on April 17.  In general, I'm using the form:
           Mr. Andy Clark
    I choose to use Andy rather than Andrew because this is a social event (actually a formal dinner). Although the event has business overtones as I have a mix of corporate, government, and guests at our tables. Should I use the Andrew form instead of the Andy form?
    Which is the right way to go for those with PhD (or equivalent) degrees:
        Dr. Michele Gates
        Ms. Michele Gates, PhD
        Michele Gates, PhD
        Ms. Michele Gates

    How should I make out these cards?
    --- Thanks, Andy

Dear Andy:
    Most formal/traditional place card would be just the basic information to help the guest find their seat – (honorific)+(surname):
        Mr. Clark
        Captain Thompson
        Dr. Detweiler

    At a an event where the card is printed with the name both sides to provide the names for networking etc. ...  you do see full names use the full names (not nick names) like this:
        Mr. Andrew Clark
        Captain Robert W. Thompson
        Dr. Charles Detweiler

    Nick names are typically used at a casual event, such as at an in-house event where everyone is already on a first-name basis, or at home.
    PhD's in academia and a research use "Dr" ...  those who aren't usually don't.  So if Michele is a research scientist ... write her card as Dr. Gates. If she's in corporate work, use Ms. Gates

          -- Robert Hickey


Not Finding Your Question Answered?
Below are other topics covered in my blog.  If you don't see your question answered send me an e-mail. I am pretty fast at sending a reply and if I think It would be of interest to others, I will post the question and the answer with all the names and personal specifics removed.
                    -- Robert Hickey

USE OF NAMES & HONORIFICS   
Mr., Miss, Jr., III, & Names        
Married Women       
Deceased Persons         
People with Two Titles
Post-Nominal Abbreviations and Initials           
Joint Forms of Address    (How do you write two names?)   

USE OF SPECIFIC OFFICIAL TITLES        
Former Officials            
Professionals and Academics        
United States Federal Officials             
United States State Officials              
United States Municipal Officials             
       All About The Honorable with U.S. Officials         
       Former United States Officials            
United States Armed Services             
       Retired U.S. Armed Service Officers
Tribal Officials             
Clergy and Religious Officials           
Canadian Officials         
Australian Officials          
British Officials, Royalty, and Nobility        
Diplomats and International Representatives
           
Foreign National Officials and Nobility        

SPECIFIC SITUATIONS
Etiquette             
Flags: Traditions and Protocol             
Introductions
            
Invitations: Writing & Addressing
        
Invitations: Just Armed Service Personnel        
Names on Programs, Signs, & on Lists           
Place Cards            

Precedence: Ordering Officials           
Thank You Notes             


Site updated by Robert Hickey on September 1, 2010



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Robert Hickey is the author of Honor & Respect:
The Official Guide to Names, Titles, and Forms of Address
Published by The Protocol School of Washington®
Foreword by Pamela Eyring

Copyright © 2010 Robert Hickey.     All Rights Reserved.
Book Photo: Marc Goodman.




All information on www.formsofaddress.info is copyright © 2010 by Robert Hickey.
The Protocol School of Washington® is registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.
Honor & Respect is dedicated to Dorothea Johnson, Founder of The Protocol School of Washington®